Saturday, August 14, 2021

Pakistan Independence Day: Can Religion Be A Basis Of Nationhood?

It is quite fashionable among liberal Indian and Pakistani elite to question religion as a basis of nationhood. Pakistani intellectual Javed Jabbar responded to some of these "liberal" critics at a conference in New Delhi, India. He said as follows: "India was a region, not a country until 1947....Pakistan was NOT carved out of India.... Both India and Pakistan became independent countries in 1947.. Religion can be a basis for nationhood".

Happy Independence Day Pakistan

In his detailed remarks, Jabbar made a reference to British political scientist Hugh Seton-Watson who said there is no scientific definition of nationhood. 

Jabbar also talked about "Imagined Communities" by Professor Benedict Anderson who taught political science at Cornell University in New York. Anderson explored how these "imagined communities" are created by the territorialization of religious faiths and the decline of antique kingship

Talking about pluralism, Jabbar said Pakistan is a diverse pluralistic country with multiple regions, languages, religions, etc. Jabbar added that the creation of Bangladesh reinforced the Two Nation Theory. How? Bangladesh chose to remain independent rather than merge with India. 

A recent Pew survey has revealed that two-thirds of Hindus in India believe only Hindus are truly Indian. Prime Minister Narendra Modi's Hindu Nationalist BJP party's appeal is the greatest among Hindus who closely associate their religious identity and the Hindi language with being “truly Indian.” The Pew survey found that less than half of Indians (46%) favored democracy as best suited to solve the country’s problems. Two percent more (48%) preferred a strong leader. 

Most Hindus Link Hindu Religion and Hindi Language With Indian National Identity. Source: Pew

The majority of Hindus see themselves as very different from Muslims (66%), and most Muslims return the sentiment, saying they are very different from Hindus (64%). Most Muslims across the country (65%), along with an identical share of Hindus (65%), see communal violence in India as a very big national problem. Like Hindus, Muslims prefer to live religiously segregated lives – not just when it comes to marriage and friendships, but also in some elements of public life. In particular, three-quarters of Muslims in India (74%) support having access to the existing system of Islamic courts, which handle family disputes (such as inheritance or divorce cases), in addition to the secular court system.     

Most Hindus (59%) also link Indian identity with being able to speak Hindi – one of dozens of languages that are widely spoken in India. And these two dimensions of national identity – being able to speak Hindi and being a Hindu – are closely connected. Among Hindus who say it is very important to be Hindu to be truly Indian, fully 80% also say it is very important to speak Hindi to be truly Indian.    

Here's a video clip of Javed Jabbar's remarks:

https://youtu.be/0VF_07yT580



39 comments:

Ahmed said...


Dear Sir Riaz

Thank you for such a nice and wonderful post .

Happy Independence day to all Pakistanis.

Riaz Haq said...

#Pakistan national anthem translated from Farsi to Urdu. #IndependenceDay

https://twitter.com/haqsmusings/status/1427079755736645635?s=20

The only purely Urdu word in #Pakistan national anthem is “ka” as in “Pak sar zameen ka nizam”.

Ahmed said...


Dear Sir Riaz

Thanks for this wonderful post, but Sir may I ask you some questions if you don't mind? Are you sure that the soul of founding father of Pakistan (Quaid-e-Azam) will be happy to see the current condition of Pakistan?

Are you sure that soul of Quaid-e-Azam will be happy especially to see the condition of Karachi under PPP government?

Thanks

Ahmed said...


Dear Sir Riaz

I am really shocked and surprised that in this video that you have just quoted in your above post in which Mr.Jabbar is siting as a visiting guest from Pakistan on the stage and former Indian General GD Bakshi is siting in the audience asking him question.

Did you notice Sir that at time 0:17 of this video, their is a lady siting on the front in the audience?She was actually an Indian film actress who worked in Indian movies in 1980s.

Thanks

Anonymous said...

Riaz,
Have you not learnt anything about European history and the disadvantages of religion as national identity or even personal identity? That is why countries have evolved from theological states to secular states. Simple mob pyschology will teach you that once you have a national identity based on religion, there is a preponderance of attention put on that identity, leading to fanaticsm and very strict interpretations of religious doctrines. Consider Talibans rule or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan for that matter. Let us see what happens in Afghanistan now.

This is what happens, when you twist yourself into a pretzel trying to validate a stupid decision. Either way, just like Israel, what is done, is done. The best thing that can be done is to guide Pakistan into secularism.

Riaz Haq said...

Anon: "Simple mob pyschology will teach you that once you have a national identity based on religion, there is a preponderance of attention put on that identity, leading to fanaticsm and very strict interpretations of religious doctrines"

Pakistan's founder Quaid e Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah was a very progressive leaders. His vision of Pakistan was inspired by Misaq e Madina, the constitution of the first Islamic state established by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

http://www.riazhaq.com/2014/08/misaq-e-madina-inspired-quaid-e-azams.html

Here's the opening line of Misaq-e-Madina:

"This is a document from Muhammad the Prophet (may Allah bless him and grant him peace), governing relations between the Believers i.e. Muslims of Quraysh and Yathrib and those who followed them and worked hard with them. They form one nation -- Ummah."

It clearly says that all citizens of "Yathrib" (ancient name of Madina), regardless of their tribe or religion, are part of one nation--"Ummah". So the word "Ummah" here does not exclude non-Muslims.

Further into the "Misaq" document, it says: "No Jew will be wronged for being a Jew. The enemies of the Jews who follow us will not be helped. If anyone attacks anyone who is a party to this Pact the other must come to his help."

The Mesaq assures equal protection to all citizens of Madina, including non-Muslim tribes which agreed to it. The contents of Misaq-e-Madina, Islam's first constitution approved by Prophet Mohammad 1400 years ago, appear to have inspired Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah's vision of a pluralistic Pakistan where people of all religions and nationalities live in harmony with equal rights and protections under the law.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

Religion, ethnicity or any other reason but a group can decide to form a unity by itself and calling them self a nation is better than a colonial power uniting a geographic unit of a disjoint group and calling them a nation. A make belief nation where a Kashmiri pundit has nothing common with a Kerala Christian, where they need the language of their colonial masters to communicate with each other should give other lecture to others about nationhood.

G. Ali



Riaz Haq said...

#Pakistan has expanded its #economy at 4% CAGR & multiplied its #exports 10X in last 20 years. It's a global player in apparel/textiles, & lately exported its first #smartphones. #Taliban win next door could be a godsend or a nightmare
https://www.barrons.com/articles/pakistan-spent-decades-expanding-its-economy-while-entangled-in-the-afghan-taliban-51629160797 via @BarronsOnline

The Taliban’s triumph is also a nightmare of sorts, making Pakistan an easy scapegoat for global outrage at the repression its fundamentalist clients are expected to impose. “Pakistan is very vulnerable to sanctions,” Nooruddin says. “All the capital they need to develop could get frozen pretty quickly.”

A key barometer to watch will be the Financial Action Task Force, the global anti-money laundering body. FATF put Pakistan on its “grey list” in 2018, finding “serious deficiencies” in the country’s monitoring regime. The Global X MSCI Pakistan exchange-traded fund (ticker: PAK) has lost half its value since then. Post-mortem scrutiny into Islamabad’s Taliban financing may quash chances of removing this blight. It could also affect further tranches of a $6 billion aid package Pakistan signed two years ago with the International Monetary Fund.

Imram Khan, the Oxford-educated prime minister who came to power two months after Pakistan’s grey listing, has underwhelmed as a reformist outsider. “There hasn’t been a huge amount of change,” says Alison Graham, chief investment officer for frontier-markets specialist Voltan Capital Management. “Khan seems to be cut from the same cloth as the surrounding political environment.”

She is still eyeing Pakistani investments on valuation grounds. “The trajectory of the market has been straight down for reasons I don’t quite understand,” she says. “Pakistan’s million political problems don’t affect its economic situation that much.”

Maurits Pot, chief investment officer at Dawn Global, chose Pakistan as one of five countries in his recently launched Asian Growth Cubs ETF (CUBS). Companies that leverage the nation’s youth and education levels, like software provider Systems (SYS.Pakistan), will prosper whatever geopolitics may bring, he argues. “It’s a very vibrant but cheap capital market,” he says.

Western ostracism of Pakistan should reach a limit, too. China, which has marked a China-Pakistan Economic Corridor as one of the flagship projects in its One Belt One Road master plan, will be happy to take up slack as the West retreats. More importantly, Islamic revolution returning to underdeveloped Afghanistan may be a tragedy; Islamic revolution spreading to 225 million-strong, nuclear armed Pakistan would be a catastrophe. “The last thing the U.S. wants is two failed states next to each other,” Pot observes.

Pakistan had little choice but to become embroiled in Afghan politics, the Atlantic Council’s Nooruddin says. It is home to 25 million Pashtuns, the ethnic group that dominates the Taliban (and the just-ousted Afghan government), and needs to handle their loyalties delicately. “The Taliban have been a hassle for Pakistan to manage, and they’ve handled it reasonably well,” Graham adds.

That subtlety will quickly be lost, though, as the Taliban consolidates their reconquest of their homeland with cameras rolling. Pakistan won’t have much time to celebrate its good luck.

Ahmed said...


Anoynomous

You said:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Have you not learnt anything about European history and the disadvantages of religion as national identity or even personal identity? That is why countries have evolved from theological states to secular states. Simple mob pyschology will teach you that once you have a national identity based on religion, there is a preponderance of attention put on that identity, leading to fanaticsm and very strict interpretations of religious doctrines. Consider Talibans rule or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan for that matter. Let us see what happens in Afghanistan now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My comment:

This misunderstanding actually appears when you paint all the religions of the world with same brush. Sir, you must understand that not all religious texts and scriptures of the world are in conflict with progress of the society. According to orthodox or classical Christian priests or their popes, scientific and technological progress was considered against the very nature of Christianity . These priests or popes thought that if their Christian followers start focusing on different fields of knowledge, then they will deviate from the teachings of Christianity, this is why their was a battle between Fundamentalist Christians and the secular Christians in the past,which led to the victory of the secular Christians because secular Christians wanted European society to make progress in science and technology and this was only possible if they fought against the fundamentalist Christians. This is why you now see that most of the European countries inspite of having Christian majority population, still their constitution is based on secularism.

In terms of Islam, this is much different, if you read about the history of medivial times, you will come to know that at that time, Islamic empire extended from Asia, to Africa and even to some parts of Europe, even Spain was included in it. At that time Muslims were pioneers and leaders in the field of mathematics, science, medicines, philosophy, arts and architecture, this was not because the Islamic empire was secular but because the Islamic empire at that time adhered to some of the important Islamic laws and principles which you might not see now in most of the Muslim countries.

Most of the Muslim countries which you see now ,don't have Islamic laws or Islamic constitution, the government systems in most of the Muslim countries are based on Kingdom.

s

Ahmed said...


Anonoymous

I think you are an Indian because it is Indians who have problem with the Islamic constitution of Pakistan much more than any other nation has .

Can you even prove that secularism could be applied on Pakistan? If the founding father of Pakistan wanted Muslims of India to live in a secular state, then pls note that he must be aware of the fact that as soon as British would leave Indian sub-continent, they will hand over the power to Indian National Congress and they intended to make India a "SECULAR COUNTRY" after the departure of British. Now the question is that if India itself had to be a "SECULAR COUNTRY" after partition of 1947 and If Jinnah(founding father of Pakistan) wanted Muslims of India to live in a secular country ,then why did he struggle so much for the creation of a seperate state for Muslims of India?

Ahmed said...


Sir Anonymous

You said:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Consider Talibans rule or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan for that matter. Let us see what happens in Afghanistan now.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My comment:
Sir as far as Saudia Arabia is concerned, they have only implemented Islamic Law(Shariah) in their country where it is required or necessary, the constitution of Saudia Arabia is not completely based on Islamic law(Shariah). Yes mostly their constitution is based on Islamic law(Shariah) but pls note that Saudi authorities have also applied those laws in their country which is based on their Arabic culture and values.

Can you pls tell me where does it says in the Qur'an or Hadith that women are not allowed to ride any transport by herself? You might not be knowing that one of the beloved wives(our mothers) of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) named "HAZRAT AISHA(RA)" took part in battle of Siffin(battle of camel) which is considered as the 1st civil war in Islamic history.

In this battle Hazrat Aisha(Ra) rode the camel herself and she even led the army and commanded her army. Can you imagine that 1400 years ago when women were subjected to such bad treatment and had a very poor status in the society and didn't had respect, in that time, Hazrat Aisha(Ra) the wife of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) use to ride the camel and she not only rode the camel but also commanded her army .

For many years in Saudia Arabia, women were not allowed to drive cars, now you tell me, which Islamic law says that women are not allowed to drive any transport herself? Now if you study this issue of Saudia Arabia, you will come to know that this law which Saudia authorities actually applied is not based on teachings of Islam but they are based on their cultural and traditional aspect. So their are several laws in Saudia Arabia which are not based on the teachings of Islam, but they are based on their cultures and traditions.

Take the example of Saudi government, they don't follow democratic or secular model in Saudi government, their government is based on Kingdom, can you pls show me where in the Qur'an or Hadith, Allah(God) or the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) has encouraged Muslims to follow Kingdom in their government system?

Same is the case in Afghanistan. The Taliban who are considered as strict and fundamentalist Muslims did apply strict laws in Afghanistan, but some of those laws were not based on teachings of Islam but they were based on the teachings of their Afghan tribal culture and tradition. Unfortunately when such laws are applied in Muslim countries, the western people and other non-muslims think that these laws are completely based on teachings of Islam which is not true.


Riaz Haq said...

(British) Defence Secretary Ben Wallace has backed the UK's armed forces chief over comments he made to Sky News suggesting the Taliban has "changed" since it was last in power 20 years ago.

https://news.sky.com/story/afghanistan-defence-secretary-ben-wallace-backs-uk-armed-forces-chief-general-sir-nick-carter-over-taliban-has-changed-remarks-12385054

General Sir Nick Carter also called the insurgents "a group of country boys who live by a code of honour" and said that they wanted an "inclusive" country.



He also told the BBC it "may well be a Taliban that is more reasonable, less repressive and, if you look at the way it is governing Kabul at the moment, there are some indications that it is more reasonable".


His remarks have since been criticised as "absurd" and "unpalatable".


But Mr Wallace told Kay Burley on Sky News: "He also said that he will see if they change. We are where we are, the Taliban are running the country."



Asked whether he was defending Sir Nick, Mr Wallace said: "Of course I am defending him. Nick Carter knows more than I will ever know about Afghanistan and the Taliban and more than most people. He is a deeply experienced general.

Anonymous said...

To the folks who have commented above defending Pakistan's religious constitution - yes, "in theory", if one follows Islam properly, they would be scientific, welcoming, friendly with other religions, respectful of women's rights and so forth. However, this is like wishing for utopia. It is will never happen. Humans by nature will follow their basic instincts for power, money, control, revenge and so forth - leading to states like the taliban or saudi arabia. You need to be practical and learn from history. The European states have gone through all of this countless times and hence with the Renaissance, there was a shift towards secularism.

For the other commenter, who said - " Now the question is that if India itself had to be a "SECULAR COUNTRY" after partition of 1947 and If Jinnah(founding father of Pakistan) wanted Muslims of India to live in a secular country ,then why did he struggle so much for the creation of a seperate state for Muslims of India?"

Simple - he was wrong and misguided and power hungry. That does not mean he was not a bad person or not a great person. It is silly to deify anyone - no one is perfect.

Anonymous said...

Annon

"
For the other commenter, who said - " Now the question is that if India itself had to be a "SECULAR COUNTRY" after partition of 1947 and If Jinnah(founding father of Pakistan) wanted Muslims of India to live in a secular country ,then why did he struggle so much for the creation of a seperate state for Muslims of India?"

This whole paragraph does not make any sense, it is a completely incomprehensible. As far as your comment that Jinnah was power hungry, there is no proof of that. The question you should ask is why Muslims never trusted Congress and supported ML under Jinnah almost unanimously? Why ML all of sudden became so popular after Congress rule of 30s, what were congress's blunders. Also, why Pakistan movement was so popular in provinces where Muslims were in a minority? These are the questions you should concentrate on rather on focusing on irrelevant character assassination of a great man.
Zamir

Ahmed said...


Dear Sir Anon

You said:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This whole paragraph does not make any sense, it is a completely incomprehensible. As far as your comment that Jinnah was power hungry, there is no proof of that. The question you should ask is why Muslims never trusted Congress and supported ML under Jinnah almost unanimously? Why ML all of sudden became so popular after Congress rule of 30s, what were congress's blunders. Also, why Pakistan movement was so popular in provinces where Muslims were in a minority? These are the questions you should concentrate on rather on focusing on irrelevant character assassination of a great man.
Zamir
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My comment:
Sir this was the comment which I made and I was responding to that Indian. Indians normally have problem with the title "ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN" and they know that Pakistan is a country which was created in the name of Islam. This is a big problem for India and Indians want Pakistan to become a secular state and I know why Indians want Pakistan to become a secular state. If Pakistan becomes secular state then it will loose all its value and essence for which it was created.

The whole purpose of creation of Pakistan will vanish if Pakistan becomes secular. This is why I just gave an explanation in which I tried to clarify that why Pakistan shouldn't be a secular state.

Ahmed said...


Dear Sir Riaz

I hope you are doing well, Sir do you know Mr.Ashraf Habibullah? He is a Pakistani Structural Engineer and he graduated from NED University in Karachi and later migrated to America.

Their in America he founded this company called "COMPUTERS AND STRUCTURES".

He is a very high-profile person in America and I hope you have met him personally ,he is living in California.

Pls do make a blog regarding him also.

Thanks

Ahmed said...


Dear Sir Riaz

I wanted to ask you some important question, it is true that mashallah many educated and skilled Pakistanis are contributing in different fields in America but I have also heard some Indians making claims that Pakistanis who live in America use to call themselves "INDIANS" when ever they were asked about their nationality.

Sir how true is this claim of Indians?

Pls do throw some light on this.

Regards,

Riaz Haq said...

Ahmad: "Indians making claims that Pakistanis who live in America use to call themselves "INDIANS" when ever they were asked about their nationality"

Americans often confuse Pakistanis with Indians or Mexicans but I don't know of any Pakistani in America who claims to be Indian or any other nationality.

Ahmed said...

Dear Sir Riaz

Thank you for your reply, Sir what these Indians mean to say is that Pakistanis feel ashamed of calling themselves as "PAKISTANIS" when ever they are asked about their nationality in America, so inorder to defend their reputation, Pakistanis call themselves as "INDIANS".

Now I think most probably the reason why these Pakistanis might be calling themselves as "INDIANS" is because after 9/11 incident as you know, Muslims were criticised in different parts of West as the media was promoting muslims as the main villian of 9/11 incident. So inorder to escape such criticism by Americans, these Pakistanis must be calling themselves as "INDIANS".

Yes I know that Pakistanis would never feel proud to call themselves as "INDIANS" but inorder to escape such criticisms ,they might be calling themselves as "INDIANS" to be on the safe side.

Riaz Haq said...

Ahmad: "Yes I know that Pakistanis would never feel proud to call themselves as "INDIANS" but inorder to escape such criticisms ,they might be calling themselves as "INDIANS" to be on the safe side"

Please tell these delusional Indians what the West really thinks of them. Read below:

https://www.riazhaq.com/2020/09/ambassador-kishore-mahbubani-america.html


"One hard truth that Indians have to contend with is that America has also had difficulty treating India with respect", writes former Singaporean diplomat Kishore Mahbubani in his latest book "Has China Won?". "If America wants to develop a close long-term relationship with India over the long run, it needs to confront the deep roots of its relative lack of respect for India", adds Ambassador Mahbubani. It's not just Mahbubani who suspects the United States leadership does not respect India. Others, including former President Bill Clinton, current US President Donald Trump, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and CNN GPS host Fareed Zakaria have expressed similar sentiments.


There is some evidence to support Ambassador Mahbubani's assertion about America's lack of respect for India. For example, ex US President Bill Clinton said in 1990s that India has a Rodney Dangerfield problem: It can’t get no respect, according to his deputy secretary of state Strobe Talbott. In a diplomatic cable released by WikiLeaks in 2010, Hillary Clinton referred to India as "a self-appointed frontrunner for a permanent UN security council seat."

More recently, US President Donald Trump mocked Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi about Indian contribution to Afghanistan. Trump said he got along very well with Prime Minister Narendra Modi, but the Indian leader was "constantly telling me he built a library in Afghanistan". "That's like five hours of what we spend... And we are supposed to say, 'oh, thank you for the library'. I don't know who is using it in Afghanistan," Trump said.

Indians were justifiably very proud of their great scientific achievement when the India Space Agency ISRO successfully launched the nation's Mars Mission back in 2013. The New York Times, America's leading newspaper, mocked India with a cartoon depicting the country as a dhoti-wearing farmer with his cow knocking on the door of the Elite Space Club.

In an article titled "Paper Elephant", the Economist magazine talked about how India has ramped up its military spending and emerged as the world's largest arms importer. "Its military doctrine envisages fighting simultaneous land wars against Pakistan and China while retaining dominance in the Indian Ocean", the article said. It summed up the situation as follows: "India spends a fortune on defense and gets poor value for money".

After the India-Pakistan aerial combat over Kashmir, New York Times published a story from its South Asia correspondent headlined: "After India Loses Dogfight to Pakistan, Questions Arise About Its Military". Here are some excerpts of the report:

"Its (India's) loss of a plane last week to a country (Pakistan) whose military is about half the size and receives a quarter (a sixth according to SIPRI) of the funding is telling. ...India’s armed forces are in alarming shape....It was an inauspicious moment for a military the United States is banking on to help keep an expanding China in check".

Ahmed said...


Dear Sir Riaz

One more important thing, I was watching a video of Mr.Cheema who is a Pakistani Professor who teaches Strategic relations ,he took interview of a Pakistani businessmen in America .Mr.Cheema asked him that why are Indians more successful in America than Pakistanis? That Pakistani businessmen replied that "INDIANS GET ALONG VERY WELL WITH AMERICANS AND MIX UP WITH AMERICANS MORE THAN PAKISTANIS".

Sir don't you think that Pakistanis must also integrate with Americans instead of just living in their community and keep themselves isolated?

Pls do give your views on this.

Regards,

Ahmed said...


Dear Sir Riaz

This is something also very important, I was watching a program on youtube in which Mr. Qamar Cheema who is a Strategic and Political Analyst was taking interview of Mr.Sajid Tarar.

Sir, Sajid Tarar sahab was basically an advisor to Trump administration when Mr.Trump was the President of America. Mr. Sajid Tarar is feeling lot of pain and he is a very patriotic person, he is saying that Indian influence is unfortunately growing in the politics of America. The CEOs of corporate companies in America are mostly Indians and he is saying that he is worried about his future and the future of his children in America.

Mr.Sajid Tarar said that when he was going for a campaign of Trump administration in America when Trump was becoming President of America, Mr.Sajid Tarar was vetted and he recieved 26 objections and this objection was based on the information that Mr.Sajid was speaking against Kashmir, although he never spoke against Kashmir. Do you know who raised this objection against Mr.Tarar? It was Indian Americans who raised these objections against him.

Mr.Sajid Tarar is saying that he faced lot of obstacle when he was going into this campaign of Trump administration. This clearly shows how much influence these Indians are gaining in American politics.

Also Mr.Sajid Tarar has said that unfortunately their is a possibility that these Indian Americans will never allow Pakistani Americans to grow in the future in America if these Indian Americans gain this much power and influence in America.

Mr.Sajid Tarar has said that Pakistanis in America are only busy in the politics of Pakistan, some of them have opened chapters of PTI, PMLN and PPP in America instead of uniting as a force and trying to contribute for other Pakistanis who are living in America.

Can you kindly Sir take this issue seriously?When will Pakistani Americans wake up and when will Pakistani Americans form their dedicated lobbies which can counter the growing influence of these Indians? This is also possible when Pakistani Americans use their influence to reach or approach American officials and congressman and inform them how Pakistanis can benefit America if Pakistanis get a chance to play their role in politics of America.

Pls check this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhE9AhZXh1I

Riaz Haq said...

Ahmad: "That Pakistani businessmen replied that "INDIANS GET ALONG VERY WELL WITH AMERICANS AND MIX UP WITH AMERICANS MORE THAN PAKISTANIS"


Please look at real data rather than subjective opinions.

https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/06/09/social-realities-of-indian-americans-results-from-2020-indian-american-attitudes-survey-pub-84667

Indian Americans’ social communities are heavily populated by other people of Indian origin. Indian Americans—especially members of the first generation—tend to socialize with other Indian Americans. Internally, the social networks of Indian Americans are more homogenous in terms of religion than either Indian region (state) of origin or caste.

Polarization among Indian Americans reflects broader trends in American society. While religious polarization is less pronounced at an individual level, partisan polarization—linked to political preferences both in India and the United States—is rife. However, this polarization is asymmetric: Democrats are much less comfortable having close friends who are Republicans than the converse. The same is true of Congress Party supporters vis-à-vis supporters of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP).

Ahmad: Please also read this:

https://www.nap.edu/read/21746/chapter/3#27

Many come to understand and identify with a racial or ethnic category that was often unfamiliar or meaningless before they immigrated. Black immigrants from Africa or the Caribbean had not thought of themselves as African Americans before immigrating to the United States, and the category “Asian” is often new to many people who had thought of themselves as Chinese or Pakistani before their arrival. In this sense, one can speak of people being “racialized” as they come to the United States. They may also face racial discrimination, based on neither their identity as immigrants nor their national origin identity but rather on their new “racial identity.”

Ahmed said...


Dear Sir Riaz

Thank you so much for your reply, Sir mein nay yah nahi kaha thah ke ap meri yah political comment ko post karein. Sir laykin kindly please please ap is issue ko serious lein. Agar Indians ka influence American political system mein grow kar gaya aur agar Indians ney kafi corporate companies mein top positions hasil karli America mein then the Pakistani Americans will be in deep trouble. These Pakistani Americans after graduating from Universities in America will never get a chance to prove themselves and prove their skills if Indians take over the corporate companies and politics of America, Americans are far better than these Indians.



Allah ka wasta kuch karein Sir

Ahmed said...


Dear Sir Riaz

Their are many Indians and Pakistanis in Arab countries especially in Dubai, do you know that I have been to Dubai in 2000. I saw that most of the managers of the hotels in Dubai were Indians, and even the waiters and receptionists who are working in that hotels were Indians.

So you can very well imagine and realize that when ever these Indians get appointed at top positions in any company in any country, they make sure that they only hire Indians at lower positions of that company or organization. In a way these Indians establish their monopoly. Do you think that these Indians after taking over these hotels ,companies and organizations, will give chance to Pakistani candidates who apply for jobs?

Sir I have interacted with some Pakistanis on facebook and they were in Dubai searching for jobs, but they couldn't get jobs even after staying in Dubai for atleast 2 years,when I asked them that why they couldn't get jobs? They said that most of the managers or the hiring authorities in the companies and organizations of Dubai are Indians and they prefer their own Indians in hiring process.


Sir unfortunately the same senario is developing in America and i am afraid that this is happening.

Riaz Haq said...

Ahmad: "These Pakistani Americans after graduating from Universities in America will never get a chance to prove themselves and prove their skills if Indians take over the corporate companies and politics of America, Americans are far better than these Indians."

Indians can not take over America...it's a pipe dream. America is too big for anyone ethnic group to take it over. Meanwhile, Pakistani-Americans are doing quite well.

https://www.riazhaq.com/2019/10/pakistani-americans-among-top-5.html

A recent study shows that Pakistani-Americans are among 5 most upwardly mobile groups in the United States. Other top most upwardly groups are Chinese-Americans from Hong Kong, Taiwan and People's Republic of China and Indian-Americans.

Riaz Haq said...

Ahmad: " I saw that most of the managers of the hotels in Dubai were Indians, and even the waiters and receptionists who are working in that hotels were Indians"

India's population is about 1.4 billion and Pakistan's about 200 million.

So it's natural that there would be more Indians visible among migrant workers overseas.

https://www.riazhaq.com/2019/06/more-pakistanis-migrating-to-non.html

Here is the list of top 20 countries of origin for international migrants:


1. India 15.9 million

2. Mexico 12.3 million

3. Russia 10.6 million

4. China 9.5 million

5. Bangladesh 7.2 million

6. Pakistan 5.9 million

7. Ukraine 5.83 million

8. Philippines 5.32 million

9. Syria 5.01 million

10. Afghanistan 4.84 million

11. United Kingdom 4.92 million

12. Poland 4.45 million

13. Kazakstan 4.08 million

14. Germany 4.0 million

15. Indonesia 3.88 million

16. Palestine 3.55 million

17. Romania 3.41 million

18. Egypt 3.27 million

19. Turkey 3.11 million

20. United States 3.02 million

21. Italy 2.9 million

22. Burma (Myanmar) 2.88 million

23. Colombia 2.64 million

24. Vietnam 2.56 million

25. South Korea 2.35 million

Ahmed said...


Dear Sir Riaz

Thank you for your reply but Sir, Mr. Sajid Tarar is siting in the government of America and he was the advisor to Trump administration, he said in his video interview that their are 5 Indians who are in the congress of America, not even 1 Pakistani is their in the congress of America.

Sir I don't remember the name ,when Joe Biden became President of America, he hired a lady as a Vice President of America and she indirectly has Indian origin from her mother side.

Ahmed said...


Dear Sir

Thank you for your reply, Sir I understand and agree that the population of India is over 1 billion and thier are millions of Indians who are living and working abroad, but the question is that why are these Indians being hired at top positions in Dubai and other Arab countries?

Don't these Arabs know that these Indians will never give chance to other nations when they apply for jobs in these organizations and companies?

Riaz Haq said...

Ahmad: "5 Indians who are in the congress of America, not even 1 Pakistani is their in the congress of America"


There are about half a million Pakistanis and at least 4 million Indians in America. And Indian community is older than the Pakistani community in America. VP Kamala Harris's mother came to the US in 1958.

https://www.riazhaq.com/2021/06/us-census-pakistani-americans-are-young.html

It takes time for any immigrant group to politically establish itself. Pakistani-Americans will do so in time just as the British Pakistanis have done in UK. There are over a dozen British Pakistani members of parliament, including current and former ministers in the cabinet.


https://www.riazhaq.com/2017/06/dozen-british-pakistanis-elected-to-uk.html

Ahmed said...


Dear Sir Riaz

Thank you for your reply, I agree with you it will take some time for Pakistani Americans to have their influence in the politics of America but Sir, don't you think that Pakistani Americans must be more active now ? Sir I think the reason why Indians are becoming more successful in America and are able to have their influence in the politics of America is because they must be having backing and support of Isreali lobbies.

Do you think that these Indians can have this much influence in the corporate companies in America and in the politics of America without having a support from Isreali lobbies?

Riaz Haq said...

Ahmad: "don't you think that Pakistani Americans must be more active now ?"

Pakistanis are increasingly participating in US politics and other walks of life.

Several Pakistanis have been elected in US cities as mayors and city councilmen/councilwomen in recent elections. Please read the following:

https://www.riazhaq.com/2019/02/silicon-valley-pakistani-americans.html

Pakistani-Americans are also rising corporate ladders. In fact, the richest South Asian in America is a man named Shahid Khan.


https://www.riazhaq.com/2013/09/pakistani-american-shahid-khan-is.html

Riaz Haq said...

Ahmad: "why are these Indians being hired at top positions in Dubai and other Arab countries?"

Indians are being hired everywhere, including America, in top positions.

Hindu Americans are the richest ethnic group in America....they are richer than Jewish-Americans.

The flip side of it that India is losing its creme of the crop. Almost all of the top IIT grads leave India.


https://www.southasiainvestor.com/2021/06/top-one-percent-are-hindus-new-jews-in.html

Devesh Kapur, a professor of political science at the University of Pennsylvania and co-author of The Other One Percent: Indians in America (Oxford University Press, 2017), explains the phenomenon of high-achieving Indian-Americans as follows: “What we learned in researching this book is that Indians in America did not resemble any other population anywhere; not the Indian population in India, nor the native population in the United States, nor any other immigrant group from any other nation.”


Kapur talks about what he calls “a triple selection” process that gave Indian-Americans a boost over typically poor and uneducated immigrants who come to the United States from other countries. The first two selections took place in India. As explained in the book: “The social system created a small pool of persons to receive higher education, who were urban, educated, and from high/dominant castes.” India’s examination system then selected individuals for specialized training in technical fields that also happened to be in demand in the United States. Kapur estimated that the India-American population is nine times more educated than individuals in the home country.

Ahmed said...


Dear Sir Riaz

Thanks for your reply to my comments, Sir I wanted to ask you one important thing. You said in your comments:
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US President Joe Biden lauded the contributions of Indian Americans during a conversation with NASA scientists who were involved in the historic landing of Perseverance landing at Mars. ‘Indian- Americans are taking over the country. You (Swati Mohan), my Vice President (Kamala Harris), my speech writer,’ Joe Biden said. Indian-American scientist Swati Mohan leads the guidance, navigation, and control operations of NASA's Mars 2020 mission. The President further added that the achievement of the team was exemplary and thanked them for instilling a dose of confidence in the American people. Watch the full video for all the details.


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My comment:

Sir, I just heard from an Indian who was commenting on youtube that recently one of the Indian was hired at one of the top positions in NASA(North American Space Agency) but later it was noticed that as soon as this Indian was hired at such a key position, he started hiring more Indians in NASA, the percentage of Indian employees in NASA increased to such a level that the authorities of NASA had to stop the hiring process and they started to scrutinize the hiring process ,later NASA stopped hiring Indians.

Sir can you pls confirm how true this information is?

zen, munich said...

@Riaz

There is another detail which is worth mentioning: While higher caste north Indians have done remarkably well (Rajat Gupta along with pretty much all of the high ranking Indian born professors in ivy league colleges to mention a few), the most outstanding achievers are actually south Indian Tamil Brahmins. This include household names such as Sundar Pichai, Indra Nooyi and less well known, but highly remarkable persons such as V. S. Ramachandran. This continues even to current generaion where several top researchers in AI and theoretical computer science. It is worth noting that CV Raman and Ramanujan also belonged to the same community. I guess both nature and nurture plays some role in their accomplishments.

Riaz Haq said...

Only 4.5% Population in India is Graduate or Above: Census

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/only-4-5-population-in-india-is-graduate-or-above-census-1240996


Only 4.5 per cent of the population in the country is educated up to the level of graduate or above while a majority of 32.6 per cent population is not even educated up to the primary school level.

According to the census data for 2011 on literacy, workers and educational levels, released by the Registrar General and Census Commissioner of India, literate population who are presently attending any educational institution in the country, below primary occupies the major share of 32.6 per cent.

It was followed by primary (25.2 per cent), middle (15.7 per cent), matric (11.1 per cent), higher secondary (8.6 per cent) and Graduate and above (4.5 per cent).

During the decade 2001-11, improvement is observed at middle and above educational levels and decline in percentage share at lower levels (below-primary and primary).

The improvements at higher educational levels are indication of educational advancement in the country during the decade 2001-11.

The data on workers by five categories of literates namely literate but below matric/secondary, matric/secondary but below graduate, technical diploma or certificate not equal to degree, graduate and above other than technical degree and technical degree or diploma equal to degree or post-graduate degree have also been released.

The data that distributes the population, main workers, marginal workers, non-workers, marginal and non-workers seeking/available for work by literacy status and educational levels separately for total, scheduled castes and scheduled tribes population is also released.

The data reveals that during the decade 2001-2011, there is an overall improvement in literacy status and educational levels of various types of workers and non-workers among total and SC/ST population.

Census 2011 has further exhibited that out of about 55.5 million Marginal workers seeking/available for work in India, the majority of 21.9 million (39.4 per cent) are illiterates followed by 20.9 million (37.6 per cent) literates but below matric/secondary and 8.0 million (14.5 per cent) matric/secondary but below graduate.

Riaz Haq said...

Zen: "the most outstanding achievers are actually south Indian Tamil Brahmins"

Yes. You're right. They're known as "Tam Brams" in Silicon Valley.

They are also known to discriminate against Muslims and lower caste Indians here in the valley.

https://www.riazhaq.com/2020/08/after-73-years-of-independence-caste.html

The few well-educated Indian Muslims and low-caste Hindus can not escape the upper caste domination even in Silicon Valley. Over two-thirds of low caste Indian-Americans are discriminated against by upper caste Indian-Americans in Silicon Valley, according to a report by Equality Labs, an organization of Dalits in America. Dalits also report hearing derogatory comments about Muslim job applicants at tech companies. These revelations have recently surfaced in a California state lawsuit against Silicon Valley tech giant Cisco Systems.


zen, munich said...

Tam Brams have been called Ashkenazims of India (https://www.aei.org/foreign-and-defense-policy/asia/the-ashkenazim-of-india/)

I have seen some of them also identifying themselves as a persecuted minority similar to Jews, though that is a joke given that they were not discriminated anywhere in the history.

I have seen Muslims from Kerala (where my roots are) playing to their erstwhile strengths in commerce and capital management by running startups and consultancies in London and USA. While this is respectable, the advantage which TamBrams have is probably due to their affinity to science and numbers since the time of British Raj - something which Muslims in subcontinent lacks and something which cant be gained in a few years.

The affinity of TamBrams to Maths is even more historic. Kerala Brahmins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nambudiri) are their closely related cousins and are known to have contributed to number theory as early as 16th century (Madhava of Sangamagrama)

Riaz Haq said...

#Bangladesh Minister Thanks #India For 1971. "Without her (Indira Gandhi) help, without her government's help, without the help of the people of India, it would never have been possible for us to liberate our country in 9 months' time" #Pakistan https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/bangladesh-minister-hails-indias-support-in-1971-liberation-war-2533312

Without the help of Indira Gandhi, her government and the support of the people of India, Bangladesh would not have attained its independence in nine months in 1971, Bangladesh minister Hasan Mahmud said today, asserting that his country would remain forever grateful for India's support in its Liberation War.
The Information and Broadcasting minister of Bangladesh also hit out at Pakistani sceptics who in 1971 had scoffed at Bangladesh's freedom, predicting a bleak future for the nation, and pointed out that his country was well ahead of Pakistan on all counts of development.

He made the remarks at the launch of the book ''A Bangladesh War Commentary - 1971 Radio Dispatches'' by the late U L Baruah, the then director of external services, All India Radio, and later DG of AIR.

Hailing India's role in his country's independence, Mr Mahmud said it would never have been possible "for us to liberate our country in nine months' time without the help of India".

"So, I want to register at ICWA (Indian Council of World Affairs), my gratitude to the people who fought for Bangladesh, for its liberation," he said.

The people of India gave refuge to 10 million people from Bangladesh, not just in neighbouring states but in other states also, Mr Mahmud said.

Bangladesh would forever remain grateful to the people of India and the then government of India, he asserted.

"Indira Gandhi went from one part to another part of the world to build an opinion in favour of our freedom fight, our independence war and also to liberate Bangabandhu Sheikh Mujibur Rahman from the custody of Pakistan," Mr Mahmud said.

"Without her (Indira Gandhi) help, without her government's help, without the help of the people of India, it would never have been possible for us to liberate our country in nine months' time. It would never have been possible to free Sheikh Mujibur Rehman," the minister reiterated.

Slamming Pakistani sceptics of Bangladesh's future, Mr Mahmud said under the leadership of Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina, his country was well ahead of Pakistan on all indices -- social, economic and human.

"Our per capita income is 2,227, while that of Pakistan is over 1,500. Our foreign currency reserves are more than two times that of Pakistan, our poverty rate is well below Pakistan's and our life expectancy is 73 years," he pointed out.

"When Imran Khan formed the government, he said he would transform Pakistan into Sweden and then there was a debate in the Pakistani media, saying don't give us false dreams, try to make Pakistan like Bangladesh in 10 years," he said, underlining the rapid strides of development Bangladesh had made after its independence.

Amit Baruah, senior journalist and son of U L Baruah, introduced his father's book that has been published by ICWA and Macmillan Education from an original manuscript of his father's commentaries of the tumultuous times in 1971-72.

"My father wrote these commentaries in his capacity as the Director External Services, All India Radio, in 1971-72. These were translated from English and aired on Urdu, Pashto, Sindhi, Punjabi, Bengali and West Asian language services of the All India Radio," he said.

"All the original titles of the commentaries have been retained. They provide rich context for the events of the 1971 war and the liberation of Bangladesh," Mr Baruah said.