Sunday, June 18, 2017

Riaz Haq vs Cemendtaur on Merits of Civilian vs Military Rule in Pakistan

Pakistan has been ruled by the nation's military for about half of its existence since independence from Britain in 1947. The experience and data from the civilian and military rule has often been the subject of debate in Pakistan. Here are some of the key points of this debate:

1. What are the origins of modern political thought and democracy? What did Thomas Hobbs, John Locke, Jean-Jacques Rousseau and other Enlightenment thinkers say about the underlying social contract, natural rights of the people and the role of the state? Are security and safety not pre-requisites for rule and law and democracy?  How do these ideas apply to Pakistan?

2. Has Pakistan made more socioeconomic progress under military rule or civilian rule? How have Pakistan's economic and human development indicators fared under military compared to civilian rule? Are there parallels between Pakistan and Asian Tigers?



3. Could the loss of the eastern wing of the country have been prevented in 1971 if the military did not rule Pakistan? Who contributed the most to the rupture? Was it the military or the politicians?



4. Is it fair to argue that India has never been ruled by he military when there are large parts of India with millions of Indians living under virtual martial law? Is it fair to say, as Arundhati Roy puts it, that Indian government has been perpetually at war with people it calls its own in Kashmir, Manipur,  Mizoram, Nagaland, Talangana and elsewhere?

Please view this debate in Urdu in two parts below:

https://youtu.be/JNZoWsdGtgQ





https://youtu.be/V7KyiEByXPA




Related Links:

Haq's Musings

Civilian Democracy vs Military Dictatorship in Pakistan

Musharraf's Legitimacy

Pakistan's Economic History

Civilians' Disappointing Report Card on Human Development

Is this a 1971 Moment in Pakistan's History?

Asian Dictators Brought Prosperity; Democracy Followed

Talk4Pak Youtube Channel

8 comments:

Anonymous said...

Riaz Sb., Pakistan is probably the only country that was created by it's people through their votes. Democracy is our blood. That is why every military dictator in Pakistan's history held election to justify his rule.

It is true that Pakistan's ecenomic progress is usually better under military rule but that is a worldwide phenomenon. Taiwan, S. Korea and Chile all progressed during military rule. The reason is simply because
1: military dictators can make tough decisions without any political compromise.

2: To justify their rule dictators make sure that they deliver on economic front.

Democracy takes decades to show results, disturbing the process every few years actually details the progress.

Zamir

Anonymous said...

Pakistan is not capable of democracy.

The pre requisite of democracy is dismantling feudalism and having an industrialist class to fund political parties.

There are no exceptions.India has the pre requisites for democracy Pakistan doesn't because of Nehru who stuck around till 1964 and Jinnah who passed away in 1948.

If you are not man enough to face the truth that's fine but it won't make it go away.

Riaz Haq said...

Anon: "The pre requisite of democracy is dismantling feudalism and having an industrialist class to fund political parties."

Here's what Indian "secular democracy" has delivered for the average Indian:

1. India leads the world in open defecation....in absolute numbers and percentages.

2. India leads the world in child marriages....in absolute numbers and percentages.

3. India has more poor, hungry and illiterate people than any other country in the world. In percentage terms, the poverty rate in India is 2X higher than in Pakistan.

4. More farmers have killed themselves in India than any other country in the world.

5. Top 1% of Indians own 58% of India's wealth, 2nd only to Russia's 70%.

6. India has a mass murderer Modi as its elected leader.

7. India has more slaves than any other country in the world.

8. India has had more anti-minority riots than any other country in the world.

9. India is only one of only two countries where Apartheid is still rampant....the other is Israel.

10. There are more active insurgencies in India than any other country in the world.

And yet, India is a "secular democracy"!!!!!

All of the above are easily verifiable facts from credible sources which track such data.

Anonymous said...

Sure sure..if it helps you sleep at night...

You read Indian newspapers more than Indians.Though you try very hard to cherry pick negatives you obviously also read the rest even though you have not written anything positive about India for many years..India has 98% of s Asian heavy industry and Pakistan exports low end textiles,cement and unprocessed agro stuff live mangoes and sugar.fiddle with statistics all you like but the economic race is over we have won you have lost.One single large company like Tata produces multiples of Pakistan's entire industrial output.

Riaz Haq said...

Anon: "One single large company like Tata produces multiples of Pakistan's entire industrial output."

That's the hype. Here's reality:

While India now ranks 6th in the world in terms of total manufacturing output, it still sits at a very low 142nd position terms of manufacturing value added per capita, according to the United Nations Industrial Development Organization's Industrial Development Report 2016. Pakistan's manufacturing value added is ranked 146th by the same report.

India's 3% share of the world's total manufacturing output puts it at a distant sixth position behind China's 24%, United States' 17%, Japan's 16%, Germany's 7% and South Korea's 4%.

The UNIDO data shows that India's manufacturing value added (MVA) per capita at constant 2005 prices increased from US$155.73 in 2005 to $168.42 in 2014. However, as percentage of GDP at constant 2005 prices in US$, India's MVA decreased from 15.10% in 2005 to 13.85% in 2014

UNIDO reports that Pakistan manufacturing value added (MVA) per capita at constant 2005 prices increased from US$135.03 in 2005 to $143.84 in 2014. Its MVA as percentage of GDP at constant 2005 prices in US$ decreased from 18.05% in 2005 to 17.41% in 2014.

http://www.riazhaq.com/2016/08/indias-70th-independence-day-is-make-in.html

Riaz Haq said...

A couple of critiques of Indian democracy by Indians:


Indian writer Arundhati Roy says that the Indian upper caste Hindu state has been perpetually at war with people in Kashmir, Nagaland, Manipur, Mizoram and Talangana since 1947.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Y3H1WdkMk&t=12s

#Indian barbarity from Gill to Kalluri #Sikhs #Muslims #Adivasi #Kashmir #Gujarat #Chhattisgarh http://www.straight.com/news/916021/gurpreet-singh-kps-kalluri-how-barbarity-reinforces-indias-majoritarian-democracy … via @georgiastraight

by Gurpreet Singh


Thousands of innocent Muslims were slaughtered by mobs led by BJP activists. This came after a train carrying Hindu pilgrims caught fire and burned, leaving more than 50 passengers dead. The Modi government promptly blamed the incident on Muslim fundamentalists and dubbed it a terrorist attack.

The BJP not only accused Pakistan of aiding and abetting the crime, but also charged suspects with terrorism-related crimes. However, those involved in well-organized violence against Muslims were spared being charged under antiterror law.

When I asked Gill why those who killed Muslims were never charged for terrorism, he said that the antiterror law didn’t apply to them.

Gill was glorified and became a celebrity for ending Sikh extremism and his admirers continue seeing him as a man who resolutely fought against terrorism. But they won’t ever dare to question why he did not take on terrorism perpetuated by Hindu groups using similar techniques that were frequently applied to deal with Sikh separatists.

---------------

While the mainstream media is too busy paying tributes to Gill, a senior police officer in the Indian state of Chhattisgarh, Inspector General S.R.P Kalluri, is being patronized on similar lines. He is posted in a state that is under the influence of Maoist insurgents.

Chhattisgarh is one of several states with a sizable number of indigenous communities. Their traditional lands sit over natural resources and that’s why they continue to face eviction by the extraction industry with the backing of the Indian establishment. Due to the structural violence against them, many are forced to join Maoist movement.


Much like the Sikhs, who merely form two percent of the Indian population, the tribals, with only eight percent of the population, can easily be bothered by the government and security agencies to assure the Hindu majority of peace and prosperity.

In the meantime, Muslims continue to face persecution every day. Islamophobia in the western society has made it easier for Modi and Indian forces to target them. Apart from nonstate actors who often threaten and assault Muslims for eating beef, which is considered blasphemous by orthodox Hindus, the police are in the habit of seeing them as potential terrorists. Particularly in Muslim-dominated Kashmir where a fight for self-determination has been going on for years and whee the army and its vigilantes openly attack people in the name of national unity and integrity.
---------

The connection between KPS and Kalluri suggests that India has become a majoritarian democracy where the interest of the Hindus is safeguarded all the time to ensure electoral victory. Though officially India is a secular democracy, it has repeatedly shown signs of being a Hindu state inclined toward keeping minorities under its boots. This is so that 80 percent of the population that believes in Hinduism (read Hindu nationalism) can be swayed by the ruling classes in the name of nationalism.

A true democracy is inclusive and considerate of all, including those on the margins, and not just the majority.

Anand Jodhani said...

We notice that as you started realizing that India is winning economic race u started bring economic agendas. Sure we gave gender disparity, income inequality and the minority bias, but we are improving and rapidly. Shall definitely leave Pakistan behind like you did when u moved out

P.S. You have a love for absolute numbers but why not talk in percentages because with 6 times population we will obviously have a bigger number for everything

I did not not you had a anti semitist feeling yoo like all Muslims. I guess its all u generation problem. U can take u out of your Muslim world but not the Muslim world outa u

Riaz Haq said...

For too long, Pakistani schools have been a means to provide jobs, rather than education
Pakistan is trying to spend its way out of its education crisis. It can’t. But the government can learn about accountability and efficiency from private schools

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jun/27/for-too-long-pakistani-schools-have-been-a-means-to-provide-jobs-rather-than-education

ith more than 20 million children out of school, Pakistan has, at last, begun talking about its education crises. Our media and civil society routinely grill politicians on a lack of funding for public schools. Opinion sections of national newspapers usually publish a few articles a week on how the lack of quality education is becoming an existential threat to Pakistan’s social cohesion. Foreign aid funded projects take primetime television ads to tell parents about the importance of educating their children.

It has had some impact; education has become a key talking point in political debates. The government regularly boasts about the growing education budget with promises to provide an “excellent environment” to students. But what is lacking in this increasingly noisy debate on Pakistan’s education crisis is the experience of parents and students on the ground.

The lack of nuanced policy is leading to an alarming trend. Education spending on the ground is being translated into schools as a means to provide jobs, rather than to provide children with a quality education.

There is a very strong political element to this, as legislators are customarily elected on the basis of how many jobs they can provide to their constituents, and hence hiring new teachers takes priority in budget allocation, particularly when close to a general election. For the government, this preoccupation appears to kill two birds with one stone; an easy fix for the education crises, and sought after permanent government jobs for their constituents. As a consequence, education departments are typically the single largest employers in most provinces.

Increasing the number of teachers across the country has also been an easy policy for everyone to get behind, especially since the public discourse on fixing the education crisis has largely been focused on the need to spend more on education. In 2016, Pakistani provinces spent between 17 to 28% of their budgets on education, while the global average was 14%. Combined that’s $7.5bn spent on public education nationally, with most provinces doubling their budgets within the past five years.

But Pakistan can’t simply spend its way out of its education crisis. On the ground, most of the spending is being used for hiring non-performing teachers or providing salary hikes for existing teachers. A small section of the spending is set aside for new education infrastructure however about half of it, on average, goes unspent by provinces every year. In fact, the proportion of spending on much-needed education infrastructure has decreased, as salaries take a larger than ever proportion of the spending total.

The problem is that this rapid rise in spending isn’t translating into education for all. School enrollment nationally has continued to stagnate. Even if enrollment drives are able to get students into schools, evidence shows that only one in four children who enroll in the first grade remains in school by the 10th grade. Even of those students who remain in school, most aren’t learning basic skills like literacy. Studies have shown that over half of all 3rd graders, children aged 9-10, in government schools are illiterate.

-----------
For change to happen the quality of the conversation around Pakistan’s education crisis needs to improve. The people need to demand better teachers who are accountable to the communities they teach in, while donors need to rethink about their fixation with unrealistic funding targets and instead support reforms which make schools more efficient.